Minus sign for negative numbers/amount on invoices

DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

Hi,

this is a simple one: can we please have the option to use "-" (minus sign) to represent negative numbers on invoices ?

the current nomenclature (the "(xxx.xx)" parenthesis) might be appropriate between accountants, but after all, most invoices are intended to non accounting specialists....

Thanks

Comments

  • ChelseaKChelseaK Member Posts: 261 admin

    @Dedric I see what you mean! While I understand it would be nice to see minus signs on invoices, we're following traditional accounting practices in that credits are always represented in parenthesis. If we changed it on invoices, it would be tricky as it wouldn't be consistent with how credits are represented in the rest of Wave. It's definitely a good question though! Hope that provides further context for you. :)

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    well, that's a "non-answer" really.

    As I said, I see how INSIDE the accounting world this might be the common practice.

    HOWEVER, if I send an invoice with a parenthesis to represent a negative amount to a CUSTOMER, I can guarantee you that almost all of them will not know what this means, and will question why they can't see their discount, their credit or any other amount in their favour!!

    With a similar reasoning, a computer's language is made of "0" & "1", yet, this is not what is display on a screen to present a picture, a movie, or any other document to a human user!!!

    Obviously, Wave is an accounting system, yet, an invoice is really an accounting-2-human interface. It needs to be comprehensible by non-accounting specialists.
    I don't know what is the norm in Canada, but if you care about your European customers, you should know the "-" (minus sign) is the common expected representation for a negative number. (and pretty sure it's the same in the vast majority of the world).

  • JamieDJamieD Administrator Posts: 1,145 admin

    @Dedric We're planning to have an improved workflow on how Discounts work in Wave by the end of this calendar year (this is one of the primary focuses of the Sales Service team). Appreciate your patience while we continue to work toward that -- but in the meantime, there won't be any specific changes to the way discounts look on invoices for now (until that feature is improved).

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    well, thanks for the "info", but this is not about "discount",

    it's about the capacity to produce an official document in a way that is comprehensible to my customers! (and not just his/her accountant!!)

    .....

  • wondermumwondermum Member Posts: 2

    @JamieD is there any info on when the possibility of using a minus sign for negative amounts in invoices will be available, if at all? Thanks!

  • AlexLAlexL Administrator Posts: 2,869 admin

    Hey @wondermum . This is not currently on our roadmap but I'd love to hear some more about how this feature would enhance your business workflow. Let me know!

  • wondermumwondermum Member Posts: 2

    @AlexL, people are really confused by my invoices when I display a negative amount with brackets: they invariably ask an explanation on what is that amount and question why I do not use a minus sign like everybody else, so I tell them that is because of the invoice system I use, to which they reply why don't I change it then... So I guess it would not directly enhance my process business workflow, but it would definitely make my interaction with my customers much better!

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭
    Yep, exactly the same here.

    Maybe it’s a “US & Canada versus the rest of the Word” thing, but I’m astonished it sounds like a surprise to the Wave team: the “-“ (minus) sign IS how you express a negative number!!!

    And even if the bracket thing is used in the accountancy world, invoices are sent to normal people....

    GIVE US THE OPTION TO USE A “-“ SIGN FOR MWGATIVE NUMBERS !!!!

    Thanks
  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭
    > @AlexL said:
    > Hey @wondermum . This is not currently on our roadmap but I'd love to hear some more about how this feature would enhance your business workflow. Let me know!


    How it would “enhance my work flow”??
    Easy: it would allow my Customers to actually understand the documents I send to them!!
  • c_wittyc_witty Member Posts: 1

    I am in the same boat as @wondermum and @Dedric ... I love how Waveapps folks are unable to understand how most clients ( "normal, everyday people" ... not accountants or bookkeepers) don't want to see (100) in their invoice !?!?!? REALLY WaveApps... MOST people would better understand "-100" on the items list!!

    This is not a "Discount"... this is not a "Workflow"...

    @BenRajabi ... @AlexL ... @JamieD ... @ChelseaK ... @Alexia ! Give us the option to present an invoice with a (-) minus sign.

  • BarsinBarsin Administrator Posts: 2,041 admin

    Hey there @c_witty

    I totally hear you on how this is perceived aesthetically. We appreciate your feedback here and understand how this might affect your clients. With regards to the line item for the discount, if you titled the line item discount or added it in the description box, this should give your clients a bit more clarity and assurance that the amount is actually being reduced. As always we appreciate future +1's to this feature idea!

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    @BarsinA,
    as much it is polite and appreciated when a Support rep writes things like "We appreciate your feedback here….", what is really expected as an answer is something more like:

    • it's already fixed in the next update
    • yes, great feedback, we will make it happen in X days/weeks/months
    • good idea, we will try to make it happen in X days/weeks/months
    • sounds good, but unlikely to happen anytime soom
    • sorry, but this won't happen

    that would be more honest, and most importantly, as customers of your product, we would know where to stand and what to expect.

    Thanks

  • CalliePCallieP Member Posts: 439 admin

    Hi @Dedric , thanks for getting back. I definitely appreciate your desire for a definitive answer; I know that feeling myself. I'll provide a bit more context on where Wave is at around this and all feature ideas when we respond in the Community.

    In general, if we're not offering a definitive answer in moments like this, it's because we genuinely don't have one, as there are myriad factors which contribute to our ability to provide this information reliably. In other words, we don't want to make promises we can't keep. We're actively working to be more transparent about how we approach this on the Community team, and thank you for providing an opportunity for us to do so here. @BarsinA 's previous comment provided a great workaround which is a concrete offering we can confidently make to help.

    For this particular feature idea, I can say: we're not currently looking to change how negative numbers appear on invoices for the reasons ChelseaK mentioned in her first response. We are working on improving how discounts & credits work in Wave, which will impact how they appear on invoices. I truly don't have an ETA for when this will launch, especially as many of our timelines are continually in a state of flux right now due to how COVID-19 is impacting our priorities as a company.

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    @BarsinA's workaround doesn't solve the issue. it is just an ugly partial solution, potentially creating even more confusion to the customer.

    While the use of parenthesis MIGHT be an accounting practice (maybe in some countries), this is not the most common practice in the real world.
    An invoice does NOT only have an accounting purpose. It is also an important instrument for communication and for legal reasons.

    I have never received any invoice using this parenthesis convention, nor would I dare sending one to any of my customer, as most of them are not accountants!

    Anyway, at least your last message provides a clearer answer to this issue, as I was requesting:

    THIS ISSUE IS NOT CONSIDERED AS AN ISSUE BY WAVE, AND YOU HAVE NO INTENTION TO LISTEN TO THE REAL NEED OF [SOME OF] YOUR OWN CUSTOMERS AND WILL NOT FIX IT.

    At least, we know where to stand now.

    Thanks

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    you may close this thread now I guess.

  • teresacteresac Member Posts: 8

    Customers who have paid ahead are very confused and think that they owe money because the customer statement e-mail has the credit amount in parentheses and that doesn't mean credit or the same thing a negative sign would mean to them.

    You don't have to change how credits show up in the rest of Wave as customers don't see the rest of Wave and those of us managing the rest of Wave can manage. Just change a few reports to the customer: on the invoice, the customer statement, and the e-mail generated along with sending them so that if the amount is less than 0 to show a negative sign.

    Instead of seeing it as a big roadmap future item, see it as a relatively quick change to a few forms/reports that would improve our customers' perception of this accounting program. By not changing this, it means that our customers that you might like to have as customers in the future are less likely to look at Wave as a viable accounting solution.

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    @teresac very well said!

  • ConnorMConnorM Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭

    Hey all,

    Thanks for reaching out here, and for your continued input on this matter. With regards to the change that's been suggested here, there are a few moving parts that make this more complicated than just entering a negative sign. I completely hear where you're coming from, and your logic is sound, however there are multiple portions of the Wave platform that a change like this would affect. Specifically, it would affect the accounting in reports, the Wave Invoices as a whole, the mechanics of Wave Payments, and the list goes on. Adding in a negative sign seems simple, sure, however upon further inspection, there are a lot of ways that the different portions of Wave's software interact with each other. If every piece of Wave is speaking the same language, things will run as smoothly as they can, however in situations like this we do run the risk of things being lost in translation.

    I do hope that clarifies our decisions not to pursue the way these negative numbers appear in invoices. Thank you again for your time.

  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    I think all that is asked is a formatting display on the invoice.
    You can keep what ever standards and settings in the back ground, where I'm sure any change would have repercussions globally, but If you can't even apply a format on how you display the data, I think there's something wrong there.

    if it comes down to it, integrate a simple javascript (or a CSS) replacing "( )" around numbers by a "-"…

    Bottom line is, it's not because it's not easy that you shouldn't listen to your customers' needs.

    I really wanted to use the invoicing capabilities of Wave, and even make Wave a bigger part of my business processes, but this single issue is a definitive no-go for me.
    My clients don't care about the complexity of the accounting software I use; they simply want to fully understand the invoices I sent them...

  • StrugglingICStrugglingIC Member Posts: 10

    @AlexL said:
    Hey @wondermum . This is not currently on our roadmap but I'd love to hear some more about how this feature would enhance your business workflow. Let me know!

    Hello @AlexL !
    This will enhance business workflow to create a proper invoice where discounts or vouchers or customer credits can be shown. Currently it may calculate the negatives properly, but it does not show to the reader.

    edit: Added usertag properly in the post

    edited January 3, 2021
  • StrugglingICStrugglingIC Member Posts: 10

    @Dedric said:
    Yep, exactly the same here.

    Maybe it’s a “US & Canada versus the rest of the Word” thing, but I’m astonished it sounds like a surprise to the Wave team: the “-“ (minus) sign IS how you express a negative number!!!

    And even if the bracket thing is used in the accountancy world, invoices are sent to normal people....

    GIVE US THE OPTION TO USE A “-“ SIGN FOR MWGATIVE NUMBERS !!!!

    Thanks

    I am from Canada. It's not a NA vs the world convention. We, like the rest of the world, use negative numbers and do show them in our invoices irl. Maybe the exceptions are the people who still believe that the number 0 and negative numbers were invented by "evil saracens".

  • StrugglingICStrugglingIC Member Posts: 10

    @CallieP said:

    For this particular feature idea, I can say: we're not currently looking to change how negative numbers appear on invoices for the reasons ChelseaK mentioned in her first response. We are working on improving how discounts & credits work in Wave, which will impact how they appear on invoices. I truly don't have an ETA for when this will launch, especially as many of our timelines are continually in a state of flux right now due to how COVID-19 is impacting our priorities as a company.

    Hello @CallieP

    We appreciate the great app you've built but COVID is not a reasonable excuse here. As Dedric pointed out, the ask here is one of the simplest tasks in the complex project Wave Accounting is.

    If you just care enough to mention this to the dev team, one of them can make this change faster than I wrote this post. Your QC guy can later verify it and push faster than it takes him to finish the morning coffee. If you please do so, thanks in advance for advocating for customer needs and best practices instead of being dragged down by bureaucracy.

    edit: Added usertag properly in the post

    edited January 3, 2021
  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭
    … … … … … … .
    edited January 2, 2021
  • DedricDedric Member Posts: 52 ✭✭

    @StrugglingIC : for what my personal opinion is worth, and based on their latest major decision to get rid of non-US or Canada based customers, I wouldn’t have much hope if I was you.

    In fact, I have actually totally lost trust in Wave as a company: just looking at how they showed zero respect by switching from “we want to help all small and medium businesses for ever for free blabla bla…” to “you are not welcome anymore unless from US & Canada” with no warning, and only telling existing customers AFTER the change became effective! Including stopping support! (As per their own message). And all of this less than a month before the end of the [accounting] year....

    I don’t discuss the strategic choice, but as a business owner, one can’t rely on a company that can selfishly display such a big “F#%& You, we don’t give a s#%t about you anymore” attitude.

    Anyway, good luck with the Negative sign issue...

Sign In or Register to comment.